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Europe EV sales rose 70.3% in September, 32.6% of market share (reuters.com)

163 points by giuliomagnifico 1d ago | 167 comments

ngruhn 1d ago
A good outcome of this crisis. These god damn fossil fuels. Never even mind climate change. Being depend on them has turned out to be a huge national security risk. Picking a seller is picking your poison: Russia, the Golf states, and now the US.
happymellon 1d ago
> the Golf states

Scotland?

wlesieutre 1d ago
Certainly not the US, we only get the Golf R and GTI here and they're not particularly popular

For EVs, the e-Golf has been dead for years but they may bring the name back to electric as an id.Golf next time

ngruhn 1d ago
whoops :P
mousetree 1d ago
Florida
ceejayoz 1d ago
I think they're referring to the Persian Gulf.
tonyedgecombe 1d ago
Woosh
TedDoesntTalk 1d ago
Golf in the Gulf. Must happen sometimes.
pfannkuchen 1d ago
Cricket?
GuB-42 1d ago
Also not a first. The oil crisis (1973, 1979, ...) caused many countries to seek alternative energies (like nuclear), electrification, etc...
Guid_NewGuid 1d ago
I'm reminded of the cartoon that circulated some years back where a climate denier asks the speaker "what if we built a better world for nothing?", or something along those lines.

The way these past few years have shown the absolute precarity of fossil fuel systems just proves that, preserving a comfortably liveable climate aside, renewables just make more sense across pretty much every axis.

You still get people fear mongering about Chinese solar, as if we shouldn't make the most of the oversupply subsidised by a supposed geopolitical foe. Like, no, they're not going to turn it off, once you have the panel, the light hits it and the electrons jump the gap. Oil/gas can be turned off yet the speaker is somehow glossing over that.

neves 1d ago
And China didn't need to bomb any country to sell solar for us.
dzhiurgis 1d ago
Economic coercion and dumping is well known.
theK 1d ago
> The way these past few years have shown the absolute precarity of fossil fuel systems

I agree with you but wasn't the primary takeaway of these past years that there is so much corruption anywhere even remotely related to burnable fuel that one needs not one but two actual wars (key to the fossil rich world) to provide a somewhat level playing field?

dzhiurgis 1d ago
> climate denier

Can we move on from climate change and focus on the fact that EVs are better in every possible way.

Somehow I feel buying EV for the sake of climate change is cringe (I know, I am not a good person, but also feel most people who say they care about climate change are disingenuous). Maybe it's change of political climate, maybe it's me who changed, maybe it's the odd hate you get for driving EV, IDK.

I'm not going to worry about climate 100years ago because just about everyone I know doesn't either. None of them deny it either.

rsynnott 1d ago
> I know, I am not a good person, but also feel most people who say they care about climate change are disingenuous

Got kids? The way things are going, they’ll live in a barely habitable world. If they’re lucky; otherwise they’ll just die in it.

I’m baffled that anyone is _not_ concerned about it. I suppose if you’re pretty confident that you’re going to die in the next decade or so and don’t care about other people at all, sure, whatever, carry on, but everyone else should be concerned.

machomaster 1d ago
I have kids and I am not really concerned.
encom 1d ago
>the light hits it and the electrons jump the gap

Yes, but the circuit is way more complex than that. You're dependant on the OEM for spare parts, support, software and whatever else, not to mention the problems inherent in putting this junk on the internet (which it will be). I am not fond of the idea of giving the CCP access to our infrastructure.

mattlondon 1d ago
Software? For a solar panel? Likewise spare parts? What?

I am pretty sure a solar panel is just a solar panel, a frame and some wires?

The inverters and all that sure whatever just buy local. Those have not been the bottleneck - the panels have been what has been enabling the boom.

overfeed 1d ago
Sadly, this is not the first time someone on HN ignorantly assumed solar panels come bundled with scary Chinese firmware in their comment.

It's a failure-mode only those not familiar with the basics of solar can come up with, but are readoning it out from "first principles".

deltoidmaximus 1d ago
It could happen I suppose, but most likely it would be an American company adding unnecessary spyware/rentware to a commodity product that didn't really need software in the first place and then lobbying to make the bare product illegal somehow.
dzhiurgis 1d ago
Panels obviously no (tho technically everything feasible, to a point where it can start a fire with a "backdoor"), but inverters have been found with secret modems.

Just last week I started blocking my Deye from accessing internet since I've implemented local logging.

Guid_NewGuid 1d ago
For battery storage systems sure, but for panels, not really. The panel breaks you just throw it away and buy another. And sure China can cut us off from buying another, but we have 15 years with most panels to use them while we build out local manufacture if needed. (even beyond that point you likely get usable output)

A panel is just a dumb slate of crystals that shoots out electrons, the wires and inverters and rest-of-system are up to us to design if we're indulging our China-panic. But we're basically being paid to take as many dumb panels as we can warehouse. Whether you believe that oversupply is a weapon, a mistake, or just normal industrial strategy is basically irrelevant.

triceratops 1d ago
> You're dependant on the OEM for spare parts, support, software and whatever else

China also manufactures and exports ICE vehicle parts and fossil fuel extraction equipment. No one thinks that's a dangerous dependency.

cyberax 1d ago
You can have completely autonomous systems.

Also, really? You think that Internet-facing software in inverters is a big deal?

standeven 1d ago
It’s a shame that the US and Canada are lagging behind. I get that politicians want to protect the fossil fuel industry and slow-to-adapt domestic automakers, but consumers and the environment suffer instead.
bruce511 1d ago
It's interesting to see the way politics influences public opinion which in turn influences manufacturers, which in turn influence politics.

In Europe EV's have a positive political support, which means lots of sales, which means "all" European manufacturers have solid (and improving) offerings.

By contrast the biggest EV manufacturer is politically toxic to the very people likely to buy it. And oil companies lobby hard to keep anti-EV talking points alive. Which drives sales down, and manufacturers drop EVs from the range. Banning competition doesn't seem to help with making progress.

And yes, I get the "Europe short distances" argument, but how many Americans are really driving 300+ miles every day?

So, 20 years from now, will US manufacturers exist? Or will products from Asia and Europe be too far ahead?

shinjitsu 1d ago
>And yes, I get the "Europe short distances" argument, but how many Americans are really driving 300+ miles every day?

Everyday? probably not many, but 300+ in a single day several times a year, well I bet it is quite a few. Visiting relatives at Thanksgiving and other holidays, summer vacations, sure some people take airplanes, but most aren't that well off. And if you have children visiting aunts/uncles/cousins/grandparents, the only place I'd want to do a 40 minute charge for the next leg is maybe Buc-ees, which is in a pretty small part of the country.

Will this take me and my family where we need to go is a more important consideration than the daily commute for me, but perhaps that is not as common a sentiment.

hvb2 1d ago
> but 300+ in a single day several times a year, well I bet it is quite a few.

And this hasn't been a problem in an EV for years. That's a single charge for almost all EVs now. And with fast chargers being almost everywhere, especially along highways, I doubt the actual time taken is very different.

If you don't take a single ~20 minute break in a 5 hour drive, you can beat it. I'm not sure that's healthy or safe though. If you have children this isn't even an option IMHO.

> Will this take me and my family where we need to go is a more important consideration than the daily commute

Totally your decision obviously. It's also why you see so many trucks and all terrain vehicles drive around for the 1 time a year that might be useful. The rest of the year you just pay for that in gas/maintenance/parking ease etc. Again, your decision and I'm not saying you should change, just playing Devils advocate

standeven 1d ago
Charging, for me at least, is usually a 10-15 minute affair which is faster than my family can use a washroom and stretch our legs. Several road trips per year in an EV is painless.

Towing things long distances is one of the few EV weak points I can think of, but REV trucks should mostly fix that too.

mattlondon 1d ago
I do this frequently. A 15 minute stop for a biobreak and a takeaway coffee usually adds 100 miles or so on a modern EV and fast charger.

It's really not much (if any) inconvenience. If in a gas car you assume you are going to stop to take a piss and grab a drink or a snack or something anyway during the course of a long 300+ mile drive (very likely I'd say, unless you and your passengers are urinating into bottles), you'd still need to stop for gas at some point too when with an EV you are actually spending less time since it's "filling up" while you are in the line waiting for your skinny latte. You don't have to do all that then also stop to grab gas too, because your car filled up without you.

doug_durham 1d ago
You don't need a 40 minute change. My Ioniq 5 will go from 30% to 85% in 20 minutes. On road trips I'm usually in and out in about 15 minutes which is aligned with my stop time with my ICE car. Why would you limit yourself to stopping at a single vendor like Buc-ee's? My EV is the best roadtripping car I've ever owned. It's a superior car, and it "refuels" quickly.
Shitty-kitty 1d ago
I only drive 300 miles a week. The problem is, I live in a apartment and there are no chargers at my workplace.
everfrustrated 1d ago
So stop at a supercharger once or twice a week on your way wherever. Im sure there's time in your week where you are mindlessly scrolling. Do that while charging instead of at home.
rainsford 1d ago
Sure that works, but now you have a worse version of the refueling experience you'd have with a gas car. Significantly slower for comparable prices and superchargers are still much less common than gas stations. Very tolerable on an occasion road trip. Less than ideal for everyday use.
overfeed 1d ago
> ...sure some people take airplanes, but most aren't that well off.

Which highlights the other American failure: dismal rail transportation

triceratops 1d ago
Trains aren't a panacea. See: https://gyrovague.com/2015/12/18/the-last-subway-line-in-jap...

Note: I'm not saying "don't build trains".

rsynnott 1d ago
Not sure I see your point. That seems to be based almost entirely on Japan’s population crisis; Japan has lots of trains and fewer and fewer people regularly using them due to age. Simply irrelevant for just about anywhere else (except parts of Eastern Europe, maybe).
TedDoesntTalk 1d ago
We've been waiting for you to solve it. We know you, and only you, have the solution.
Hikikomori 1d ago
Do a few 500km trips in Sweden per year. We have lots of fast chargers so mostly not an issue, quick coffee/bathroom break, like 20 min is enough. Only time it was a bit of an issue was when it was minus 30c, had to wait 20 minutes for a charger where they didn't have many.
parineum 1d ago
There are plenty of non-Tesla options available. The market in the US was already on the decline and then the federal incentive got pulled and demand has really stalled.

Speaking as a EV driver myself, the charging network in the US is really lacking. Charging times are fine but the ease of finding an unnocupied and working charger that you can drive up to and start charging quickly still too difficult.

nxm 1d ago
Maybe reasons like this make people not desire EVs:

But with winter right around the corner, owners are worried that the cold weather. The ID.4 Pro S AWD is rated for 263 miles of EPA range in ideal conditions. The 20% hit to the battery likely brings real-world range below 200 miles, and actual winter condition tests show that the ID.4 loses up 37% of its range in the cold—ouch. https://insideevs.com/news/812129/vw-id4-charge-limit-80/

standeven 1d ago
You should warn Norway, which is approaching 100% EVs for new vehicle sales.
rwmj 1d ago
200 miles is still further than I ever need or want to drive in a single journey.
karmakurtisaani 1d ago
Yes, me and all the others are worried that our daily 200km commute in -40 Degrees will not be feasible.

I mean, seriously, it's a small inconvenience once you realize you don't need a huge range in your daily life. I do wish my EV had a longer range, but I get over 300km on a charge and it's more than enough for everyday use.

bruce511 1d ago
The number of people driving 200 miles in one go in Europe is tiny.

Plus charging points are everywhere, so it's trivial to just top up for 30 mins or so.

I feel like the range question is becoming more FUD than reality.

czinck 1d ago
I believe you're misunderstanding OPs point. I read it as saying North Americans drive 200+ miles at once more often than Europeans, and so it makes sense that EV adoption would lag in North America given that.
b_t_s 1d ago
200+ miles is quite optimistic. On a bad day it's more like 130 miles, and a significant minority of americans drive 130 miles a day. I love my EV but my wife might refuse to buy another one for exactly this reason. A 250 mile range is more like 200 miles in cold weather(and that's what I see in florida so that's probably a best case). And at 85mph(what people are actually driving on the highway) it's more like 150 miles(mi/kwh really falls off a cliff over 60ish mph). And you don't want risk running out of battery just before you destination, so make that 130miles even with a dangerously small margin for error. That's 1.5 hours at highway speed in the winter. And chargers are 20-40 minutes apart and may not work(again florida so "good" charger availability...I've seen 1hr+ apart in new hampshire). So if you hit a bad charger you're potentially stranded.

Our EV is great for normal use, but my wife had to do a 200 mile round trip once a week for a couple months(not anticipated when we bought it). She quickly went from loving her fancy new car to wanting to sell that annoying POS. A faster charger plus extended range battery would have helped some(Chevy Bolt is weak on both) but it is honestly a pain point for the kind of trip many americans do somewhat regularly.

bobson381 1d ago
Oil has produced the political system, as well as the complexity it sits atop. [0] [1]

[0]https://www.apocalypse-confidential.com/the-autonomous-chemi...

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSsKV5F4xc

kalabrium 1d ago
I would love a world, where I while waiting at the traffic stop can breathe clean air. It’s sad to see that in the US the ev incentives are gone.
jerlam 1d ago
> It’s sad to see that in the US the ev incentives are gone.

After the incentives were cancelled, many of the EV manufacturers simply cut the prices of their cars by a large amount, some as high as the incentive, in the following months and model years. EV sales still fell but are recovering now. It's hard to know how many people shifted their purchase early to 2025 instead of waiting for 2026, where they may have gotten the same price.

Gud 1d ago
How do we know these price cuts weren’t simply due to manufacturing of electric cars getting cheaper as the manufacturing process improves?
mattlondon 1d ago
To be honest, in my experience, you don't need the incentives. Like what more do you actually need? Cheaper, faster, smoother, quieter, wake up every day to a full "tank", less things to go wrong. They're just better now - no one can deny that apart from absolute die-hard "petrol heads".

It's not like driving an EV has any actual downsides Vs a gasoline car any more? Yes yes I am sure people will reply saying how they need to drive 900 miles every day without stopping once while towing a trailer at 100mph etc. Most people don't need to do that, but hey enjoy spending your life doing that if that's your thing.

Aaargh20318 1d ago
> It's not like driving an EV has any actual downsides Vs a gasoline car any more?

Driving, no. Buying, yes. I bought a used car for €2600 8 years ago and it’s still going strong. That won’t buy me an EV. I drive maybe 1000 kilometers a year, the difference in fuel costs doesn’t make a dent in the difference in the initial purchase.

mattlondon 1d ago
You totally can get an EV for those sort of prices on the used market, e.g. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?body-type=&channel=c...

No need to worry about cam belts or oil changes or spark plugs or mice eating your air filter or petrol going stale in the tank or replacing fuel filters or 12v batteries going flat if you don't drive them for at least 20 mins once every 10 days etc.

PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
Used car market in the Eurozone is a lot worse(expensive) than in UK.

Most good electric bicycles I saw cost more than 2,8K. You're not getting a suable EV for that where I live.

PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
>I bought a used car for €2600 8 years ago and it’s still going strong.

Same for me. Also, I live in rental apartment, I don't live in a house with residential charging, which would make me dependent on public chagrin spots which suck and have massive energy prices compared to residential ones, so I'm in no way better off/cheaper with an EV than my gasoline car.

EVs where I live massively benefit the wealthy who own their homes and have charging at home, making EV ownership a slam dunk. Even cheaper for them if they have solar panels. But not for the poor, where TC ICE ownership is so much cheaper overall.

The government can fix this by putting cheap subsidized charging spots across all existing street parking to lead the way, but they aren't, so then we're at the mercy of the "free market" who will just gouge us, and so nothing will change.

tpm 1d ago
> That won’t buy me an EV.

for now, but maybe in a few years it will

PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
Well yes, we're talking about NOW.

Suire, EVs might get cheaper in the future, but I also might lose my auto sector job (again), so that's hardly a silver lining.

teo_zero 1d ago
> Cheaper, faster, smoother, quieter, wake up every day to a full "tank", less things to go wrong

I agree to everything except waking up every day to a full "tank". That's only if you have your own house. If not, you'll depend on public chargers, so you'll buy "fuel" at premium prices, possibly higher than petrol, and you'll have to move your car at the end of the recharge in the middle of the night to avoid the parking fee.

skylurk 1d ago
I've always rented a vehicle for those long-haul drives anyway. If you know you will be driving a lot, it's worth avoiding the depreciation on your daily driver.
carlosjobim 1d ago
You need the money to buy one. Europeans do not have much money, and less and less of the working population have the employment arrangements which the banks demand to allow them to get a nice car loan, even if they wanted to borrow money for a new car. Gas vehicles can be purchased used from the past three decades.
PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
Wait, why are you being downvoted? Not every European has Norwegian money to buy an EV. Wealth disparity across the EU is massive.

I just came from my short Euro vacation and majority of EVs I saw at the tourist spots had license plates from countries with above average wealthy people: CH, NL, DK, etc. Germans, Italians, eastern Europeans, etc mostly had ICEs.

You can't mandated all switch to EVs unless you can somehow mandate they all have the same wealth too, which isn't the case.

Timon3 1d ago
Wealth is not the only factor causing this disparate distribution. Each country has their own politics and media, which are shaped by their respective economy and history. From my own experience:

German car manufacturers make up a big part of the German economy, and they decided a long time ago they'd rather lobby to keep ICEs on the market than invest enough to develop good EVs. So for decades, our "news" media (especially Bild and co.) worked to instill a deep-seated fear in the population against EVs, renewables and co. This is changing slowly since solar got ever more profitable, and fossil fuels got so expensive. But still our current government is actively removing lots of incentives for renewables while throwing money towards the O&G industries.

This is simply not as big of a factor in a country like France, which is not as dependent on fossil fuels.

PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
>Wealth is not the only factor causing this disparate distribution.

It's the main factor. Without charging at your house, EV ownership is a PITA.

Aaargh20318 1d ago
Taking out a loan for something that depreciates as fast as a car seems like the dumbest thing a person could do.
xoa 1d ago
>Taking out a loan for something that depreciates as fast as a car seems like the dumbest thing a person could do.

...what? For most the world by area (so at least 20-30% of the population, even in Europe) arbitrary point to point mechanical transportation is a requirement for work/life at least a significant chunk of the year. Most will also either flat out need, or find quite valuable: 1) Having that capability on demand. 2) Being able to permanently customize it to suit their needs (be it accessibility, having tools and organizational systems onboard, or most basically having what can be transported along with them match their common/rare needs).

The most economical way to manage that in general is owning your own vehicle. But it's a large capital expenditure upfront. Getting a loan to spread that out over time is one of the most basic purposes of debt. The ROI is in the actual utility, not in some sort of asset appreciation. Which is how most economics is right? I didn't replace all my incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs because I expected to be able to resell them later for more money, I bought them because they deliver far more useful visible wavelength photons per watt, and with more precise tuning and far less toxicity and other concerns then fluorescent. If I needed to replace 10k bulbs and wanted to get a loan for it the economics would be pretty straightforward to pencil out even with the expectation the entire value of the bulbs would go to zero wouldn't it? Taking out a loan for an EV car isn't any different.

tpm 1d ago
> The most economical way to manage that in general is owning your own vehicle.

It might not be the most economical way to manage that. Often owning a car is seen as a status symbol, and economically it would be more rational not owning one. But I doubt many people do a really thorough honest calculation - they don't have to, they can afford a car. In that way, a car loan is helping them to do the, strictly economically speaking, wrong thing.

> But it's a large capital expenditure upfront.

Yes, which is why in many countries the private owners are not the biggets market for new cars; instead, companies are, because they have the incentives to buy new. And private owners mostly buy on the secondary market.

carlosjobim 1d ago
Well then the enlightened hacker argument simply turns into: "People who can't afford an electric car are stupid".
overfeed 1d ago
Or more charitably to the consumers: "Having all EVs priced as luxury vehicles is stupid." Fortunately, non-American manufacturers are doing something about this, while Americans continue to dream about an electric Ford Maverick.
lossolo 1d ago
Move to Shenzhen or Shanghai, that's already the reality there. It was so weird to experience this while stopped in traffic in the centers of so many Chinese cities. You're sitting in your car, and it's so quiet that all you can hear are footsteps on the sidewalk, the wind, and birds chirping.
PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
>Move to Shenzhen or Shanghai, that's already the reality there.

EVs are a lot cheaper there than in Europe(same modes), plus way more charging infra, plus much cheaper energy than in Europe.

anthonypasq 1d ago
what an embarrassment for the West. We are truly a 20th century civilization
PorciiVorbesc 1d ago
As always, the Europeans are told by their out of touch ruling elates, they should eat cake if they can't afford bread.
expedition32 1d ago
Compare the London subway with the Shanghai subway.

The first was built one hundred years ago with the modern tech of those times.

To quote the philosopher Bob Dylan "those who are first will later be last".

Symbiote 1d ago
On the other hand, to buy a car in a Chinese city you have to join the government waiting list and wait to be approved.

You'll also have the car's movements tracked in detail, etc.

If China's the 21st century, they can keep it.

Timon3 1d ago
Let's be fair about the tracking: basically every modern car sold in the US and Europe is being tracked through built-in SIMs. And even older cars are mostly tracked through mobile phones, and in the US through Flock and similar surveillance networks. Ad-tech companies have built up detailed profiles, frequently including detailed location data. And we have no reason to assume our governments aren't actively tracking all these sources.

With today's AI models, it'd be feasible to analyze massive amounts of video/audio data gathered by the microphones and cameras all around us - as long as you have enough GPU data centers.

rainsford 1d ago
Sure China is an authoritarian dystopia, but it's not like that's a necessary tradeoff you have to accept to have a civilization that's rapidly advancing in technology.

In fact if you believe democracy is the superior system of government, it's arguably even more embarrassing that an authoritarian single party state run by billionaire communists is somehow doing a better job as a technologically advanced civilization that a lot of democracies.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter though. The future will at least temporarily belong to those who get there first, regardless of their system of government or other issues. If other countries don't want China to own the 21st century, they should act like it.

lotsofpulp 1d ago
The EV incentives are not gone, they just changed from being a non refundable federal income tax credit to higher fossil fuel prices.
gib444 1d ago
> It’s sad to see that in the US the ev incentives are gone.

Why do the sellers need handouts? See sibling comment about manufacturers cutting prices when the handout ended...

1over137 1d ago
Tailpipe emissions are only half of it. The brake and tyre dust is the second half, and not solved by EVs.
bdamm 1d ago
Brake dust is at least mostly solved by EVs, because regenerative braking does the vast majority of the braking work, thus no dust. Tire dust is real, but is going to be there no matter what kind of powertrain a vehicle has. EVs have more wear, but it is marginal. A Tesla Model 3 weighs less than any new pickup truck for sale today.
gloxkiqcza 1d ago
> A Tesla Model 3 weighs less than any new pickup truck for sale today.

I'm an EV fan but this is apples to oranges comparison. EV vehicles are substantially heavier than their ICE counterparts. Their instant torque also wears tread quicker. That's just facts and there's nothing wrong with that. The world is not black and white.

AnthonyMouse 1d ago
> EV vehicles are substantially heavier than their ICE counterparts.

Tesla model 3 curb weight: "3,552 lbs to 4,072 lbs"

BMW 3 series curb weight: "3,536 lbs to 4,180 lbs"

> Their instant torque also wears tread quicker.

This works the opposite of how you imagine it does. Because electric motors have a flat torque curve, electric cars typically use a single-speed transmission, e.g. Model 3 has a fixed gear ratio of ~9:1.

Modern ICE cars typically have around 6 gears and the lowest one will have a higher total gear ratio than that, more like 15:1, causing wheel torque to be around two thirds higher in that gear proportional to engine torque than it would be at 9:1, and the engine's torque peak is commonly ~2400 RPM, which translates to as little as 10-15 MPH in first gear.

Electric cars like the Model 3 Performance accelerate quickly because they have >500 horsepower. So do ICE cars with equivalent power. Meanwhile something like a Nissan Leaf has similar power and correspondingly a similar 0-60 time to a Honda Civic.

To put it another way, there are very few modern cars where you can't hit the traction limit of the tires by putting your foot down in low gear, so the limit was never the powertrain to begin with.

Electric cars typically have a faster 60-100 time than similar ICE cars, because then the ICE car has to use a higher gear, but now we're back to the thing where this is hardly relevant unless you're accelerating the vehicle flat out to 100 MPH.

mattlondon 1d ago
Brake dust is significantly less. Modern EV specific tyres paired with moderated torque curves significantly mitigates the tyre dust.

Fossil fueled vehicles are still significantly worse for the environment and health (before you even start considering the wars and bloodshed for the fossil fuels that we're currently witnessing in Ukraine and Iran). Don't accept the propaganda.

throwawaytea 1d ago
My 13 Chevy Volt has 225k miles and is still on its original brake pads and rotors. The rotors are basically good as new, and the pads are at about 40-50%.
ASalazarMX 1d ago
But you agree that if we can eliminate half of the problem, then we should do it, right?
lotsofpulp 1d ago
If driven smoothly, EVs solve most of the brake dust problem.
techdmn 1d ago
I have nearly 125k on a M3P, on the original pads. Right foot tends to be heavy on both pedals. Regen takes a lot of the load, makes a huge difference in pad usage / life.
standeven 1d ago
Exactly. And EVs are marginally heavier if tire dust is an actual concern. Massive SUVs and pickup trucks should be criticized first.
vablings 1d ago
They sadly also increase the tire problem significantly
tencentshill 1d ago
More like 99% of it. But either way, perfect is the enemy of good.
mikestew 1d ago
"brake dust"? On an EV? Do you have any idea how long brake pads last on a hybrid (hint: a long time)? Now, for the same reasons, imagine how long the pads last on a pure EV. I expect the pads on our Hyundai Ioniq 5 to outlast me. (Granted, I'm retirement age.)

I'm not even going to address tire dust. That's just people looking for an EV-related pearl to clutch.

triceratops 1d ago
> I'm not even going to address tire dust. That's just people looking for an EV-related pearl to clutch.

Pickup trucks are heavier than EVs so their tires should wear into dust even faster. No one says jack about that.

People that kvetch about how windmills kill birds and whales don't give a shit about birds or whales. It's a bad faith argument. EV tire dust is in the same category.

educar 1d ago
I wish cities would just outright ban private cars unless you get a permit for specific reasons.
Flere-Imsaho 1d ago
Absolutely.

Replaced with trams, which i used extensively when visiting amsterdam. It was such a joy to just hop on/off.

Markoff 1d ago
while I dont have car and use with family everywhere public transport, this is a bit too strict, it would be easier to just not allow registering car unless you own your own private parking space/garage, that would already extinguish like 80-90% of the cars and solve most of the problems plus make public parking like 10EUR/hour and people will think twice whether to use the car

currently YEARLY parking fee in Prague is like 50EUR (for one Prague district where you register) while annual public transport pass cost 150EUR, what a joke, that's one way to discourage people from using public transport, at very least parking fee should cost at minimum same as public transport, where you can't buy some shared family pass, but each member of family has to cough up 150EUR, kids over 15 like 75EUR, so if you have two teenagers it will cost your family 450EUR compared to 50EUR for car all of you can share

luqtas 1d ago
oh no! your over estimating the hundreds of millions of USD saved from a health population that doesn't have to deal with air and noise pollution... also have you ever thought about the infrastructure of public transports? i don't cycle, much less mix myself in a metro/tram with all kind of people /s
bryanlarsen 1d ago
What's going on in Poland? Why is the EV market share there lower than in the US?
diath 1d ago
The median monthly gross income in Poland as of 2026 is 7.6k PLN ($1.9k USD) and like 80-90% of it will go towards your living costs, EVs will probably be a thing here in a decade or so when there's second hand market for cheap used ones coming imported from richer countries.
jadamczyk 1d ago
Probably lower buying power, poor on-the-go charging network and people not “trusting” the Evs as much yet
brainwad 1d ago
Also electric power generation is dirtier in Poland (still lots of coal), so the relative emissions benefit is lower.
somedude895 1d ago
If the power is generated by burning coal and after transmission efficiency losses etc, gasoline cars could actually be better for the environment.
rsynnott 1d ago
It would want to be either a _terrible_ coal plant or a _terrible_ transmission network or both. Internal combustion engines are brutally inefficient next to big thermal plants.
IsTom 1d ago
I think I've seen studies that they still aren't. ICE are really (thermally) inefficient.
throwawaytea 1d ago
Most people don't worry so much about thermal efficiency and care more about cost per mile..

If I could buy a type of vehicle that was only 10% thermally efficient but the fuel was practically free, that would be pretty cost effective even if not thermally efficient.

tpm 1d ago
If it's 100% coal, then yes, otherwise EVs are better. And since the grids are moving to renewables all over the world, it will continue to get better.
bryanlarsen 19h ago
Even it's 100% coal the EV's are generally better. But it's close enough to equal that you can bias the comparison either way through vehicle choice. The standard mechanism was to choose one of those horribly inefficient compliance vehicles manufacturers created by putting an electric engine in a gas car frame. "It's a fair comparison because it's the same car". Choosing an EV 1000 pounds heavier than a purpose built EV will make the gas car look good.
oytis 1d ago
I mean, EVs are supposed to be cheaper than ICE vehicles. They probably would be if EU didn't let its automakers manufacture a high margin market again by blocking more affordable competitors
tomwojcik 1d ago
We don't have a lot of superchargers etc. so you mostly rely on what you collect yourself.

EVs here make the most sense if you have solar panels on the roof, something to store the energy in and obviously a house.

Most of the Poles don't have a house.

Edit: superchargers map https://www.tesla.com/pl_pl/findus?bounds=60.47900349927211%...

I know it's not about Tesla only, but it says something.

ASalazarMX 1d ago
Local legislation can make a huge difference. In my country, you can install solar panels without storage, pump the electricity directly to the company, consume theirs, and pay the difference. Our house produces more than we consume, so charging an EV would still be mostly free for us.

If the energy company didn't buy our electricity, we would be forced to use batteries to store the surplus to charge the EV batteries.

The only disadvantage is that during a blackout, we still produce energy but can't use it. Fortunately blackouts are very rare in my region.

tomwojcik 1d ago
Same here, but the initial cost is gigantic. And after a lot of Poles made the leap of faith and went all in on renewables, the gov changed the rules of buying/selling so now if you don't have a storage, there's a very small chance this investment will ever pay off. And if you want to have a storage, then you basically need a small bunker, a separate structure, to stay compliant, which requires from you to be even more wealthy.
ASalazarMX 16h ago
Our government almost went the same route, but settled with a small nominal fee even if your consumption was negative. During those uncertain times I even considered a Tesla Battery, which had just entered the market here. Fortunately, there was a change of presidency, and sanity prevailed... for now.
SpicyLemonZest 1d ago
They weren’t until recently rich enough to fund the required charger infrastructure. Most people don’t want an EV until it flips from “not too big of a deal if you plan ahead” to “of course I can always find a charger”.
johanvts 1d ago
EVs are still pretty expensive, besides I'm sure that PIS decided that EVs are somehow a communist plot and will let Tusk turn your kids atheist. EVs are only just around the tipping point where they are cheaper without political incentives. And you need some political good will for charging infrastructure etc.
t0bia_s 1d ago
In Czechia businesses can get ~17000€ per EV, free vignettes for EV, cheaper price for charging if you get photovoltaic panels, also donated ~8000€. No wonder that sales goes up when our taxes sponsor EV manufacturing outside EU. And simultaneously automotive in EU dies. Germany is in real trouble.
dzhiurgis 1d ago
> Germany is in real trouble

Have they tried making decent EV? They had something passable for few years now, but it's far from _good_.

izend 1d ago
Europe is going to have to build more electricity generation...
rwmj 1d ago
It's distribution rather than generation which is the problem. Offshore wind farms generate copious electricity and then because of lack of interconnects they end up being paid to switch off on the windiest days. This will all be solved as more infrastructure is built.
rsynnott 1d ago
There’s a chicken/egg problem, and in practice transmission will always lag generation; you’ll never speculatively build transmission, but even before transmission upgrades happen a wind or solar farm can usually partially operate.
fifilura 1d ago
Or charge the EVS when the sun shines and the wind blows. Today you don't really need to charge your EV that often.
lapetitejort 1d ago
Or when the radioactive rocks shine
fifilura 1d ago
That is much more complicated and expensive.
oblio 1d ago
EV, epedelecs (+bike infra), heat pumps, anti plastic regulation, and Europe becomes fossil fuel resilient.
mrtesthah 1d ago
e-bikes in particular have reduced fossil fuel use by huge amounts compared to EVs. When you consider that most of a car’s energy is used simply to move the car itself, the aggregate inefficiencies are staggering.
carlosjobim 1d ago
A motorcycle uses about half the amount of fuel as a gas car, and costs a fraction of what a gas or EV car costs.

But motorbikes are always ignored, even though they would be the fastest and cheapest way for Europeans to reduce their gas usage.

What mid-sized motorcycles and EV cars have in common is superior performance.

oblio 1d ago
Most people, and especially women, don't want to ride motrocyrcles as they are dangerous. Yes, that's also because cars and dangerous, but motorcycles, by design, mingle with cars.
carlosjobim 1d ago
The dangers of motorcycles are a bit exaggerated, although they are still more dangerous than cars. Modern bikes have a bunch of safety features that motorcycles didn't have when they got their bad reputation; including super powerful ABS disk brakes and anti slip systems. There is also modern safety gear such as airbag jackets and even airbag pants.

But you have to learn to ride, and it demands more from the motorist than driving a car. And yes, there are dangers in form of car drivers, which you can do very little about to mitigate. But when motorcycles become more common, car drivers also learn to accommodate better to them. And I suspect a lot of the accident statistics come from young riders who haven't learnt to risk manage. There's a big difference riding at 35 compared to at 19.

sda2 1d ago
Let’s be real, most cagers wouldn’t last a day on any sort of motorcycle.
carlosjobim 1d ago
There will always be conflicting interest between reducing plastic packaging and guaranteeing hygiene for food products.

In my opinion hygiene takes priority.

oblio 1d ago
That's a huge leap of logic - and a bad one.

There is so much plastic we could eliminate from our lives before we even worry about that.

First of all, ban synthetics in clothes and footwear except for specific uses: windproof, waterproof, athletic gear meant for actual competitions (not athleisure). Or force full disclosure for clothes, not just main fabric, but lining, filling, decoration, trim, sewing threads, pockets, etc. Ban all false advertising (100% cotton needs to be 100% cotton, not just exterior and then 100% polyester filling, lining, trim, sewing threads, pockets...).

Ban all single use plastics such as bags or mineral water and soda plastic bottles. We are perfectly fine with natural textile bags, aluminum cans (yeah, I know), glass bottles, etc.

Ah, ban plastic plush toys and all massive microplastic generators like fleece. Keep only very limited plastic toy categories (Legos, balloons, etc).

rsynnott 1d ago
> ban synthetics in clothes and footwear

Not sure about that one. The major alternative for footwear, leather, is such a dirty industry that starting new production in developed countries is now essentially impossible, and the existing production sites will become expensive chemical hazard cleanup sites in the future.

oblio 55m ago
We can make footwear from textiles, so that covers a part.

And for leather, it would probably be worth it investing in clean tanning and leather processing. It will be a long time before everyone gives up beef & co, so we will have raw hides for a long time. We might as well accept this and use a wonderful natural material that could save us a lot of CO2 emissions, micro and nano plastics, VOCs, PFAS and all the myriad other issues with second generation sytntgetics (polyester, acrylic, nylon, etc).

einpoklum 1d ago
1. This is for "Battery EVs" (so probably not hybrid I guess)

2. I am somewhat suspicious of this statistic. A 70% jump in one month? I doubt it. Perhaps there was some change in regulation? Coordinated removal of models from the market? Or maybe a collapse in availability of some models or of car sales overall?

rsynnott 1d ago
The 70% figure is kind of irrelevant; it’s seasonal effects. The more interesting one is the 38% year to date increase vs same period in 2025.

But also, the market is hitting a tipping point. In some product categories, even ignoring subsidies, electric cars are now barely more expensive than petrol/diesel, and this is against the background of soaring fuel prices with no obvious end in sight. It would be surprising if numbers were _not_ up dramatically.

jdlshore 1d ago
3. A massive sustained oil crisis that can no longer be ignored
Leherenn 1d ago
I believe the car market is very depressed in the summer months, especially August, so a good chunk of it is probably simply people buy more cars in September than in August. Proportion would be more interesting.

See the 5y graph here: https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/car-registration...

There's always a massive drop in August for some reasons.

rsynnott 1d ago
Half of Europe considers August, as a whole, to basically be a holiday. Some countries practically shut down.
anovikov 1d ago
Why are people still arguing and trying to dilute 2035 fossil fuel car production ban? Isn't it obvious that by 2035 these cars will be off market, ban or not, because no one will want to buy them?
layer8 1d ago
No one would care about ban or no ban if this were true. The European auto industry cares because they are less competitive in the EV sector.
rsynnott 23h ago
This is… dubious; VW AG is by _far_ the largest seller of electric cars in Europe. The next two biggest (Stellantis and BMW) are also European. BYD is fourth, and then there’s a jumble of everyone else, mostly foreign except for Mercedes (Hyundai, Nissan, Tesla, Toyota etc).
anovikov 1d ago
It's also obvious what will happen to them all. They will be all out of business by 2035. These EVs, they will be all Chinese. And that's fine.
thinkingtoilet 1d ago
No, it is not obvious, especially to anyone who lives in a rural area. There is a type of smooth-brained reactionary person who will buy the biggest gas-guzzling truck he can find just because you told him not to.
diegolas 19h ago
yeah that's me
delichon 1d ago
Is there anyone in the world who did more to make this happen than Donald Trump? Maybe Vladimir Putin?
rsynnott 23h ago
Nah, it’s mostly minihands; the Russian invasion of Ukraine caused a dramatic impact on gas prices but a more muted one on oil and particularly processed oil (petrol and diesel) prices. Russia never exported those in significant quantities anyway.
seydor 1d ago
One more reason to demand the Nobel peace prize next year
jandrese 1d ago
Yes, give him a Nobel prize but have him share it with Masoud Pezeshkian of Iran.
fifilura 1d ago
The ceremony :)
WarmWash 1d ago
Please god give donald trump a nobel peace prize for killing oil. Please, please happen.
warkdarrior 1d ago
The bombings will continue until the Nobel peace prize is awarded.
JMKH42 1d ago
Its effective but death and suffering on a mass scale aren't the best ways to drive EV adoption overall.
whyage 1d ago
Low EV adoption will lead to much more death and suffering due to climate change. So, sure, it's not the ideal way to achieve this result, but it's better than the alternative.
usern20260720 1d ago
I wouldn't be so optimistic. At the current trend, we might be just walking corpses. Like newborn Japanese children from Nagasaki on the 2nd August 1945 (4 days before its sudden democratisation or vaporisation by the American democrazy). We are just seeing the apocalypse in slow motion.

According to some of the most optimistic doomsayers of the Interwebs, the warming levels we are enjoying as of today are due to the CO2 levels of 30 years ago.

debo_ 1d ago
Username checks out. Why age when you can sacrifice your life for climate preservation.