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Commit 06fc0df

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The plight of the public potty (thebaffler.com)

38 points by prismatic 4d ago | 110 comments

nervai 3d ago
Japan blew my mind. You're never more than 5 minutes walk away from a free public restroom in any city or town I visited. They were always clean and supplied.

They show up on Maps apps and have reviews. I remember walking a few minutes more once, in Osaka, to try one that had excellent reviews (it was a fun and original design).

In some more rural areas these became squat potties with no toilet paper, so carry a pack of tissues with you.

o_m 3d ago
I also was pleasantly surprised of the availability when I visited. But I would recommend bringing your own soap. A lot of the restrooms in the more rural areas, and even some places in the cities, don't have any soap. Hand Sanitizer won't kill norovirus, which usually spreads in restrooms.
atoav 3d ago
Japan was amazing in these regards. It truly feels liberating when going somewhere means you literally do not need to worry about that specific thing.

When I first went to Japan I felt like we in the west live like fucking savages.

user43928 3d ago
While that's good, Japan has other issues to worry about.

Since there are no trash cans, you have to carry garbage with you until you're back home, or maybe find another store where you can dispose of it.

The toilet paper and tissues in Japan are extremely thin and in my view quite inconvenient.

bschwindHN 3d ago
People get so hung up on garbage, I don't get it. Keep a single plastic bag with you, put your trash in it. Take it back and throw it away at home or your hotel or wherever you're staying. Most train stations have plenty of garbage cans, and if you're traveling in Japan, you're probably taking a train.

The toilet paper sucks, sure, but that's just cheap single-ply for public use toilets. People can and do buy the good stuff for their homes. Hardly an issue to worry about.

torisima 2d ago
I live in Japan. I usually have no trouble finding public restrooms or places to throw away trash. When necessary, I use the facilities at train stations.
user43928 3d ago
Taking a plastic bag with you to lug around garbage is obviously inconvenient. They could just put up public garbage cans like most of the civilized world.

The hotels and public venues also had the cheap single-ply stuff.

I was not able to find any decent tissues in stores, so I doubt that people all buy the good stuff for their homes.

orwin 3d ago
In cities, I agree that if you aren't used to it, it might be inconvenient.

However, 99% of hikers in Europe carry their own trash bags. It took off in the early 2000 and now it's almost a culture thing, especially amongst young hikers, and not having one is basically a social error (well, littering is, you can always ask people for an empty trash bag if you forgot yours). Honestly I can see why they choose that solution.

bschwindHN 3d ago
The people living here seem to survive just fine without these garbage cans, so I guess it's not really an "issue for them to worry about" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
atoav 2d ago
I didn't thought that to be a very big issue when I went there. In fact if I could swap my middle European trash cans against Japanese style accessible and clean toilets I would do so without thinking about it for a second.
shoobiedoo 3d ago
What's savage is what Japan does to drug users and dealers. If the west did the same, we'd be a lot cleaner, too, since washrooms wouldn't be open door fentanyl naptime rooms. But at what cost?

For what it's worth I think a middle ground leaning closer to the west is the best approach. Save injection sites like the one in Vancouver have been a disaster, however

Toutouxc 3d ago
I live in Europe and public restrooms don’t feel like fentanyl naptime rooms. Maybe that’s more of a North America thing?
shoobiedoo 3d ago
I can only speak for Vancouver. New West, specifically, which is probably more crack-denny than other areas. But yeah, even Starbucks will hang fake "out of order" signs on the door because it's guaranteed to become an impromptu vein shooting gallery at some point during the day.
TFNA 3d ago
This happens in Europe, too. In Finland, in several towns it is not unusual for (the most nondiscriminating) public restrooms to be used for heroin injection, with the needle then disposed of in the toilet bowl, preventing the next visitor from using it and making the cleaner's job even more unpleasant. I am sure this has happened in Germany at least at some points in history when some cities were internationally infamous for heroin.
cluckindan 3d ago
Cool story bro. Heroin use is practically nonexistent in Finland, opioid addicts use cheaper and easier to obtain alternatives.
SubmarineClub 1d ago
Sounds good to me! Fuck drug users, why should they get to trash public spaces for the rest of us.
squidmaster 3d ago
You call it savage, but the result is more civilized. Why should we settle for a middle ground? Why should we negotiate with degenerates who can't even be trusted with a toilet?

There is nothing savage about the way Japan treats those who are incompatible with civilization. On the contrary, to parley with the savages is what makes you a savage too.

atoav 2d ago
Huh? What do you think I said here? The point you attack doesn't appear to resemble anything I (1) meant to say and (2) actually said.
c22 2d ago
The comment you're replying to appears to be responding to the comment made by shoobiedoo in response to what you originally said. It makes sense in this context, whether or not you agree with the position.
avazhi 2d ago
That’s what happens when there aren’t druggies and nut jobs in public everywhere.
tete 3d ago
Japan is great, because they realized that if you stop giving a fuck about public debt you can make a great country happen.

Who could have thought that with investment rather than letting everything crumble things would get better?

Meanwhile here everyone is close to tears if you propose anything for the public, because that might lead to lowering the tax break for some huge multi national that then would not get the well-deserved pay-off for their lobbying work.

And to be fair who wants to live under a regime that is the worst kind of communism, treating people who want need pee, but don't pay with respect, like Japan? (sarcasm)

x-complexity 2d ago
> Japan is great, because they realized that if you stop giving a fuck about public debt you can make a great country happen.

Japan can largely ignore its public debt because its mostly owned by the Japanese themselves, and thus contained within the nation & erodible via inflation.

Most other countries are restricted from doing this due to the massive foreign ownership of national debt, & ending up in hands/firms/governments outside of their nation.

ericmay 3d ago
> Japan is great, because they realized that if you stop giving a fuck about public debt you can make a great country happen.

I don’t know if that’s a key contributor but with those economic policies you also it seems wind up with low economic growth and in a time when you might end to raise interest rates doing so is catastrophic - leaves little room for flexibility.

NordStreamYacht 3d ago
Use the bidet. Tissues are for savages.
khazhoux 3d ago
Bidets without tissue paper only works for people with very super fiber intake or mega-absorptive intestines. Otherwise, no amount of hot streaming water will wash you completely.
zulux 3d ago
Uh. See a doctor?

I have every type of turd. A sampling of soft, skittles, lumps, explosive, and everything in between. All have been water-soluble.

memcg 3d ago
Three competing gas station/ convenience stores were built in my area the past few years. All have at least 20 fuel pumps and sell hot carry out food. All have public restrooms that I assume met building codes, but one has a cramped men's room with one stall and one urinal. The other two have much larger restrooms with diaper changing stations. The other two also offer free tire inflation pumps available without purchase.

I'll go out of my way to support companies that do the right thing.

thefz 2d ago
Romans had public toilets and fountains 2000 years ago. No matter who you are, let your body function the way it was designed.
ndsipa_pomu 3d ago
Free public water and toilets are surely the first signs of civilisation.
aworks 2d ago
Didn't realize the Rogers Park, Chicago Target had a restroom. Good to know, as an old guy.
brap 3d ago
I think it’s been like 20 years since I had to use a truly public toilet.

Is this really such a common occurrence for people? Because I feel like toilets are being discussed way too much.

elric 3d ago
Do you not have a bladder? Do you never leave home for longer than a few hours? Are you aware that some people may have smaller bladders or produce more urine for various reasons?

If anything, toilets aren't discussed nearly enough. There is a huge lack of public toilets pretty much everywhere in the world.

ViscountPenguin 3d ago
Yes, most people have to use a toilet occasionally?

I can personally attest that having mild gi issues can make most of Europe a bit of a hellscape, with their expensive and simultaneously gross toilets. As an Australian I never appreciated clean public toilets before going there.

chopin 2d ago
Australia is great! German posting from down under...
bell-cot 3d ago
Congratulations on being in the top (guess) 5% of humans in this potentially very embarrassing regard. But please maintain a discretely charitable attitude toward the many who are less fortunate than you.
jhanschoo 3d ago
Don't forget some people go out to public places with their kids
kleiba2 3d ago
Is it not possible to get your point across using more decent language?
monster_truck 3d ago
What are you, some sort of fucking nun? It might be sunday but this ain't church
nightfly 3d ago
You know the answer is yes. You also know they can, and did, choose not to do that. If you have to object actually object.
defrost 3d ago
The problem with

   I need to micturate a lot.
is few would know WTF the author is referring to.
ButlerianJihad 3d ago
“Oh freddled gruntbuggly,

Thy micturitions are to me,

As plurdled gabbleblotchits,

On a lurgid bee,

That mordiously hath blurted out,

Its earted jurtles,

Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer.

[drowned out by moaning and screaming]”

—Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

It is quite interesting to note, that when I read this as a teenager, I did not even try to find out what “micturitions” are, because I confidently assumed that these were all nonsense words.

defrost 3d ago
You'll love that micturition is not equal to urination.

One is the act of expelling fluids from the body, the other is the complete whoa to go system of fluid capture, pipelined filtering, storage, treating, and feedback system for expulsion along with the pipe discharge.

ButlerianJihad 3d ago
I don’t know where the fuck you got that idea, but I am sure that you’ll love to cite your sources.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/micturition

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/micturition#English

defrost 3d ago
Throwing a ball about with urinary tract types and listening to them argue back and forth.

To clarify, micturition is very much just the process of voiding, the wave-like contractions of the detrusor muscle and the relaxation of the internal and external sphincters, and the signals that trigger that process.

The study of micturition, how far back you might chase to fully grasp what's up when voiding has issues, gets a bit more expansive.

It's a stretch to look as far back as the kidneys, sure - but you likely know how compulsives get when they're getting deep in the wees.

See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50139938

jhbadger 3d ago
What's wrong with "urinate" or "pee"?
defrost 3d ago
Varies by culture and class, you'll find some people up in arms about almost any mention of bodily functions.

ie. for some urinate and pee are just as bad as piss or wee.

Luckily my cup runneth over and I can decently speak of pissing, going for a slash, splashing the porcelain and otherwise making water in a multitude of ways in my own locale.

mft_ 3d ago
German has a word for everything; English has more alternate words for bodily functions than one could ever need :)
defrost 3d ago
It's far worse I'm afraid, you're describing level one beginner English; Colloquial English, aka Inception English, doubles up alternate meanings for the extant exuberance of words and phrases.

Of course I might simply be taking the piss.

TFNA 3d ago
Just view the article as an interesting sign of a shifting social norm. It has been decades now since "shit" and "piss" have been pretty normal, not taboo, words in European English (possibly aided by their resemblance to German and French counterparts that are less profane than the English words), and I had already observed that a softening has been occurring in North American and Australian English at least since social media gave people the opportunity to broadcast their use of the words.
iammjm 3d ago
What’s wrong with “piss”?
jhbadger 2d ago
It just seems intentionally unpleasant -- as in the insult "Piss off!" You don't say "Urinate off!" or "Pee off!" just like you don't say "Make love off!"
bell-cot 4d ago
At least in print, my sense is that this topic is dominated by angry voices proclaiming that public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right. Especially for themselves. But with amazingly little to say about the practical realities on the supply side. Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.

(Comparing to, for instance, people campaigning against hunger. Those folks seem keenly aware that food for the needy has to come from somewhere - whether donated or paid for - then be sorted and stored, possibly repackaged and transported, maybe prepared and cooked, then regularly distributed to those needing it. And if you botch even one step, then you have failed at feeding the poor.)

forgotusername6 3d ago
You pay taxes and taxes fund things which are good for society as a whole. It's not that hard. You don't beg for donations. This stuff isn't optional or the result of benevolent benefactors. If you live in society then you contribute to society.
xdennis 3d ago
It is hard and taxes are irrelevant.

If taxes are what matters, America would have the best public restrooms in the world because it's the richest country.

But what really matters is culture. If you have a small percentage of people who are bad actors and are not punished for it, they ruin it for everyone.

---

Let me give you a small example of culture and enforcement. I live in a small city in Romania. I once traveled by plane to London. The airport in my city is very small. When boarding, despite the fact that the zigzag queue was 3 lines long, people lifted the cordon and went straight to the door. I was probably the only one who followed it.

When we arrived at Heathrow, people did the same thing. The zigzag queue at Heathrow is very long, so it feels slightly fairer to skip it if there's literally no one in front of you (it was 2 AM or something). But as soon as the first person skipped the line and a second person was going for it, a guard noticed him and ordered him to go back. He tried to "negotiate" but the guard only lifted a finger and told him to "go back".

No one tried to skip after those two.

When you have a culture with no enforcement, a small minority (maybe 2%) of people ruin it for everyone and you feel like an idiot still following the rules. This makes the majority imitate the bad actors because "I might as well too".

No amount of money in the world can fix bad culture.

AngryData 2d ago
Are you saying you think citizens should blindly follow even pointless rules in order to be a good culture? Because otherwise your example makes no sense to me. What is gained by people walking completely through a large empty queue?
squidmaster 3d ago
You can't pay janitors enough to deal with degenerates who routinely deliberately destroy public bathrooms in western countries. It's a job for police and the courts, but those are dysfunctional in a way which "more money" doesn't fix.

Result is all the clean and useful bathrooms are private, because only thus can shit-smearing vandals be reasonably excluded (and only then, somewhat.)

franga2000 3d ago
So you can't pay a janitor enough to deal with vandals, but somehow the minimum wage bartender that already has to tend to a bar and cash register is able to keep their toilets clean no problem?

It's not that hard to make toilets that are nearly indestructible and can be very efficiently cleaned by a guy in a "hazmat" suit with a pressure washer. It probably wouldn't be that hard to largely automate this. But the market for this is small and mostly governments, so prices are high and innovation is low.

ndsipa_pomu 3d ago
Paris has a few automated self-cleaning toilets.

https://parisjetaime.com/eng/article/public-toilets-a696

AngryData 2d ago
Do you realize how much money police arrests, courts, and jail cost? A janitor and occassional repairs are way cheaper any way I can look at it. There arent gangs of people walking around with grinders or hacksaws fucking up as much stuff as possible despite what you may want to believe.
pizzafeelsright 3d ago
Not optional -> force of men with guns who will kill you unless you bow down. This is good for society.
rjbwork 3d ago
>This is good for society.

This is society. Its origins are people banding together to collectivize violence and its legitimate uses in order to protect themselves from the state of nature in which the strong take what they will and the weak suffer what they must.

crote 3d ago
Should we also be grateful for restaurants for having seats, or for stores having breathable air?

Cities should not be incompatible with basic human existence. I can bring a bagged lunch and eat it on-the-go. Would people be as open to me taking a shit in a bag on the sidewalk?

squidbeak 3d ago
Pragmatic, but have you considered the predicament you'll be in if you need to go before lunch?
atoav 3d ago
Yes. I am one of those voices. And my argument isn't that they do not cost money. My argument is that we can afford it, but chose to instead give the money to people and companies who already have enough. And I know literally no one who claims public restrooms are free to maintain.

Toilets and water should be basic infrastructure (and in some places they are). Business with toilets are a really unreliable way to offer toilets, since they will all come up with their own rules.

And it is ridiculous to pretend they can't be afforded. Ever been to Japan? Every train station has toilets since the 80s, literally every other store has freely usable public toilets. They all use the same signage. They are clean and free to use.

What is the point of society if not creating an environment within which we all can thrive? Yes I know, some want it to maximize the thriving only for certain (rich) people. I call these egoists.

crote 3d ago
Exactly. If a business can't afford to provide a bathroom, it can't afford to run a business.

It's like saying child labor should be legalised because your business would go bankrupt without underpaid child workers: it just means your business model isn't viable!

hobo123 3d ago
That's the thing. No one ever got filthy rich of basic infrastructure.

But that's all the more reason to get and keep the infrastructure working.

Joker_vD 3d ago
> public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right.

Well, they are. Just as drinking fountains.

> Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.

s/restroom/park/g. Hey, it's still true! And explains why there are almost no public parks around.

Edit: oh, and before someone comments on unhygienicity of drinking fountains: you're not supposed to kiss the nozzle or, heavens forbid, to fellate it to drink. Let about 1/2–1/3 of the top of the spout inside of your mouth and drink it; leave the rest outside.

pizzafeelsright 3d ago
I live near a park. I watch that drinking fountain. They bathe in there at times. They lift their dogs to drink from it despite. It breaks because they kick the button.

They are the losers, the educated affluent, the youthful of our society.

They are the problem. What is the solution?

user43928 3d ago
In Switzerland I did not see such issues with the drinking fountains which are everywhere.

It's certainly a different environment from a large American city, though we also have misbehaving youths and a few drug addicts that are perhaps homeless.

zulux 3d ago
That's because Switzerland is full of Swiss people. Their culture values not being savage.
squidbeak 3d ago
This is just a question of resource allocation and priorities. If a society can afford the displaced costs of unregulated production and extraction, or fleets of aircraft carriers and upkeep for however many thousand nuclear weapons it possesses, or oligarchs (how many is it now?) diverting wealth into superyachts, it can also afford sufficient spaces for people to piss in and janitors to clean them.
bell-cot 3d ago
Correct.

But - my experience - it's just another day of the week when advocates for hunger relief do everything from spending money on mass-market advertising, to showing up en masse at city gov't meetings to argue for the laws|zoning|city support|whatever they need, to personally mopping the floor at the soup kitchen after the meal has been served.

Vs., as a generality, "support" for public restrooms seems to consists of complaining about the status quo either privately or on the web, then going back to suffering.

Based on how involved various churches seem to be in hunger relief stuff, I'd bet most of those groups' organizational advantage comes straight from pulpits and pews. Say whatever you will about the Bad Things that religions have done all through history, or about their deities and beliefs being BS - but organized religion is organized, and understands how to make stuff happen. And it's pretty common for their Believers to also believe in working pretty hard to do just that.

Vs. - at least in private comments I hear, and the occasional essays I recall seeing on HN about this - there have been essentially zero suggestions of ever lifting a finger to address the public restroom problem. Send an unhappy email the Mayor? Nope. Google search for what a city council candidate might have said on the subject before you vote? Never. Even being tidy in the restroom of a non-restaurant business, and showing some hint of gratitude to the clerk? It is a point in favor of this particular article that it doesn't advocate an entitled and thankless attitude.

sublinear 3d ago
You're absolutely correct, but the sense of entitlement from the typical HN commenter is boundless.

Many of the people who downvoted you may want nice things, but would never contribute back. They're exactly the people who would immediately ruin it. Sometimes the grass really is greener, and it's usually because there's a system at work to keep it that way.

troupo 3d ago
Everyone who downvoted contributes back. They are the people who would not ruin it.

You on the other hand would definitely not want to contribute, and if any were built you'd go out of your way to ruin it, though indirectly (e.g. by working to reduce/remove funding for maintenance)